Listened to the 8th Episode of Skepticality podcast, and they had an interview with Tom Flynn, one of the editors of Free Inquiry magazine.
He asks this question of Christians:
In the story of Abraham and Issac where God told Abraham to kill his son Issac, and at the last moment when he was certain Abraham was going to do it, he sends an angel to stop him.
Well, what would happen if something went wrong? What if the angel didn’t make it? Would it be OK for God to let Abraham kill his son?
And 99% of the time the Christian will say no, God wouldn’t let it happen.
Why?
God HAD to stop Abraham because it would be the RIGHT thing to do.
What does that mean? It means their morality comes from somewhere deeper than religion. Somewhere so deep that they can even judge God according to that moral code.
Some more thoughts, vaguely paraphrased from Tom Flynn and :
Where does morality come from absent of religion? The ancient Greeks looked not to religion for morality, but to their philosophers.
If morality WERE Dependant on religion, then it wouldn’t really be a sophisticated morality. Most religious morality is built around the carrot-and-stick, and is a very adolescent view of morality. A view that’s designed for people that don’t have much of a conscience. And most Christians who follow their religion’s specific set of morality, is very superficial and selfish as you’re really only looking out for your own Salvation.
Isn’t it odd that Christians, who say they know more about morality than anyone else, can fight literally to the death for Terry Shiavo’s life and the life of unborn children, but it’s OK to go and invade countries and kill thousands of soldiers and thousands of brown-skinned innocent people? And rile about how wrong what Joe and Bob are doing in the privacy of their bedroom next door?
My thoughts:
A mature, evolved morality would be one in which affects and effects all people, and should have an altruistic viewpoint and not concerned with the self…and should not be Dependant upon a book.
Atheists follow the same internal moral code most humans, Christian or Hindu or Buddhist or otherwise follow. So obviously you don’t need the Christian Bible to be moral.
What does that mean? Does that mean “morality” IS objective? There IS some universal morality that guides us?
I’ve debated the idea of relativism and objective morality, here and on NewSojourn. And for a significant amount of it, I argued strongly for the extreme end of relativism despite my belief in an objective morality. If every NEARLY every culture, ALMOST every religion and major philosophy, all agree that certain things are wrong such as murder, theft, pride, etc, then does it not follow that there may be a universal (to humans at least) objective morality?
Perhaps. Probably. I believe it. I can easily say “murder is WRONG!” and not feel guilty about using an extreme, absolute, and superlative term.
Next obvious question: Who/what provided this morality?
Some would say God. I don’t know; maybe. It’s possible. I believe God created/is the universe, and the human experience is so unique in the universe (so far) that the existence of the objective morality we generally share could be God given–designed and set in motion at the onset of Creation and evolution toward the homo sapien.
Some would say it’s from a biological imperative. That in order to maintain civil social order, to keep the species at peace and work together toward evolution and survival, it’s biologically wired into us to not kill our own species (or at least members of our own social group) and to not perform actions that infringe upon another human’s “rights” and “property”.
Perhaps. But we’ve seen some pretty significant examples of lack of following the objective morality. Wars over land, wars over food, wars over ideology. Raping and pillaging from the earliest of man to today, performed by entire cultures. The enslavement of entire races and cultures by a people. The stealing of land from indigenous people. Arrogant crusades and inquisitions. Scorched earth genocide.
All of these examples can be attributed to all manner of cultures all over the world from centuries ago to even today. And all of them are also found in the Bible as actions God encouraged or commanded of the Hebrews.
What are we to make of that? If most people, regardless of religion, can live similar lives of similar moral code, and so many can perform acts of “amorality” even the most God fearing/loving religious, what do we take from that? What’s the lesson?
My opinion, get rid of religion for one. That will eliminate half the wars and strife, and no longer give people one source of justification for their amoral actions. And follow that with encouragement of understand of an objective morality that ALL people can and should follow, not for the sake of making any gods happy…but so we can all live in peace with each other! We can flourish and evolve as the human race, living to serve each other and not some deity that we must appease.