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	<title>Comments on: A Book and A Belief</title>
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		<title>By: CelticBear&#8217;s Musings &#187; Blog Archive &#187; I&#8217;ll Stop Bothering</title>
		<link>http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-4779</link>
		<dc:creator>CelticBear&#8217;s Musings &#187; Blog Archive &#187; I&#8217;ll Stop Bothering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 20:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/#comment-4779</guid>
		<description>[...] A Book and A Belief [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A Book and A Belief [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-4778</link>
		<dc:creator>jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 18:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/#comment-4778</guid>
		<description>{snickers at Celtic Bear recognizing Lent...}</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>{snickers at Celtic Bear recognizing Lent&#8230;}</p>
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		<title>By: CelticBear</title>
		<link>http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-4764</link>
		<dc:creator>CelticBear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 06:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/#comment-4764</guid>
		<description>You are right, absolutely right! Unqualifiedly right.
Fortunately I&#039;m usually this secular evangelist only here on the blog...and at home. (Sorry.)

I do see this person I present on the blog, and I&#039;d be lying if I said I didn&#039;t enjoy with a little smugness my own assumed self-superiority. Even so, I don&#039;t like that person. If this person I present here was someone I knew, I&#039;d think him a prick (sorry) and avoid him. Even if I agreed with him.

Interestingly, I just finished a section in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Life-Screen-Identity-Age-Internet/dp/0684833484/sr=8-1/qid=1171001568/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1260709-4721517?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Sherry Turkle&#039;s &quot;Life on the Screen&quot;&lt;/a&gt; where she discusses how the Internet can often magnify the different roles we assume, the aspects of our personality, and I let my blog personality be mostly the smug elitist jerk. That&#039;s not to say the content of what I post is disingenuous--I believe in what I write (except some past comment discussions where I&#039;m playing devil&#039;s advocate.) But I do dislike the fundamentalist in me. I&#039;d be happy if I could eliminate that part from the &quot;real&quot; me where people sometimes have no choice but to be around me, and leave it just on the blog where people can chose to be around me or not... but I think the two are too inexorably linked.

...if I&#039;m to truly succeed in my task of being a more moderate, positive person, I may have to go cold turkey on the blog and let that carry through to real life as well.

Maybe I can do that starting at Lent. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right, absolutely right! Unqualifiedly right.<br />
Fortunately I&#8217;m usually this secular evangelist only here on the blog&#8230;and at home. (Sorry.)</p>
<p>I do see this person I present on the blog, and I&#8217;d be lying if I said I didn&#8217;t enjoy with a little smugness my own assumed self-superiority. Even so, I don&#8217;t like that person. If this person I present here was someone I knew, I&#8217;d think him a prick (sorry) and avoid him. Even if I agreed with him.</p>
<p>Interestingly, I just finished a section in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Life-Screen-Identity-Age-Internet/dp/0684833484/sr=8-1/qid=1171001568/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-1260709-4721517?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books" rel="nofollow">Sherry Turkle&#8217;s &#8220;Life on the Screen&#8221;</a> where she discusses how the Internet can often magnify the different roles we assume, the aspects of our personality, and I let my blog personality be mostly the smug elitist jerk. That&#8217;s not to say the content of what I post is disingenuous&#8211;I believe in what I write (except some past comment discussions where I&#8217;m playing devil&#8217;s advocate.) But I do dislike the fundamentalist in me. I&#8217;d be happy if I could eliminate that part from the &#8220;real&#8221; me where people sometimes have no choice but to be around me, and leave it just on the blog where people can chose to be around me or not&#8230; but I think the two are too inexorably linked.</p>
<p>&#8230;if I&#8217;m to truly succeed in my task of being a more moderate, positive person, I may have to go cold turkey on the blog and let that carry through to real life as well.</p>
<p>Maybe I can do that starting at Lent. <img src='http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Trace</title>
		<link>http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-4763</link>
		<dc:creator>Trace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 05:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/#comment-4763</guid>
		<description>Weâ€™ve talked in the past about the way you are a secular evangelist.  You strive to win others to your way of thinking.  Itâ€™s almost shocking the similarities that I see to you and religious zealots, not in your way of thinking, but in your approach.  Your intent is good, but you will never convince someone they should change their way of thinking by beating them about the head and telling them how stupid they are being.  Just like fire-and-brimstone preachers get tuned out by the rest of the world, and end up preaching to the choir (the ones who donâ€™t really need to hear it).
Itâ€™s obvious you donâ€™t like the way most of the world around you is, and you want to change it.  But if you want to reach someone, truly change their mind, you have to live the example.  And I recommend not saying a word about what you believe unless someone asks.  Because until they ask, theyâ€™re not willing to listenâ€¦and until they see it in you, they wonâ€™t really understand anyway.
So reinforce your own beliefs, study religious doctrine if it helps you (not to refute others), be positive in the way you raise your daughter and know that you are knowledgeable and wise enough to help her counter the crazies out there.  And most of all, be loving and accepting of where people are at that moment.  If you can accept them where they are, then perhaps they will grow in wisdom and maturity, and you will know them later when their ideas more closely match your ownâ€¦and then there will be more of you working to make the world a better place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Weâ€™ve talked in the past about the way you are a secular evangelist.  You strive to win others to your way of thinking.  Itâ€™s almost shocking the similarities that I see to you and religious zealots, not in your way of thinking, but in your approach.  Your intent is good, but you will never convince someone they should change their way of thinking by beating them about the head and telling them how stupid they are being.  Just like fire-and-brimstone preachers get tuned out by the rest of the world, and end up preaching to the choir (the ones who donâ€™t really need to hear it).<br />
Itâ€™s obvious you donâ€™t like the way most of the world around you is, and you want to change it.  But if you want to reach someone, truly change their mind, you have to live the example.  And I recommend not saying a word about what you believe unless someone asks.  Because until they ask, theyâ€™re not willing to listenâ€¦and until they see it in you, they wonâ€™t really understand anyway.<br />
So reinforce your own beliefs, study religious doctrine if it helps you (not to refute others), be positive in the way you raise your daughter and know that you are knowledgeable and wise enough to help her counter the crazies out there.  And most of all, be loving and accepting of where people are at that moment.  If you can accept them where they are, then perhaps they will grow in wisdom and maturity, and you will know them later when their ideas more closely match your ownâ€¦and then there will be more of you working to make the world a better place.</p>
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		<title>By: CelticBear</title>
		<link>http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-4758</link>
		<dc:creator>CelticBear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/#comment-4758</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;No more judging. Stop thinking you are any more right than others. You may have facts, you may have formulas, you may have documents, you may have corroboration. But we are all human, and all fallible.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You are absolutely right from a moralistic and philosophical point of view! We have to stop judging. Both &quot;sides&quot; of theism/humanism are guilty of arrogance.
And I am SO guilty of it. Even now, I still have nagging thoughts of elitism I have to repress. And it only hurts the self and anyone around you. Arrogance, moral arrogance, is a poison. The cornerstone of naturalism and relativism and humanism, is that EVERYONE deserves respect! That everyone is valuable, and everyone has a right to their beliefs!

But, I do have to say, that in some things, some areas, facts do trump belief. Some people, a frighteningly large number of people!, believe the Earth is hollow. Facts totally disprove this belief. Where do you draw the line to ignore facts?

A more realistic situation, Creation is a belief. Honestly, while I would love to argue with Creationists, I do believe that it would be better to live and let live. Let Creationists believe what they want even though it&#039;s factually incorrect.
BUT! What about when a Creationist happens to by my daughter&#039;s school teacher and tries to teach her evolution is &quot;only a theory&quot; and Creation has scientific validity? I honestly and completely believe that that is a situation in which facts have to come before belief. If someone wants to teach religious views of reality in a private school, fine! Great; more power to them. But in a public school facts have to come before belief. If I wanted to get a job as a molecular biologist and help research antibiotics, what&#039;s more important? Facts of evolutionary biology or beliefs in Intelligent Design? 
In the home, sure. Personal beliefs. But there are times and places (and a blog is one of em!) where beliefs can have reign, but times and places where facts &lt;b&gt;have&lt;/b&gt; to take precedence.

I could make the argument that the aggregate of beliefs counter to facts could hurt an entire society. The U.S. ranks 2nd to last of countries in &quot;modern countries&quot; that accept evolution over religious Creationism, and the U.S. is one of the worst in education and are rapidly falling behind other countries in graduates in scientific fields and new jobs in research. This may be a specious connection, and very likely is. But is it possible that the U.S. being the most religious western nation and one of the worst in education and scientific developments are related? Yeah, I think it is. Is that a BAD thing? I don&#039;t know. If one is happy to have the U.S. falling from a super-power in all ways except military, then, maybe not. If it&#039;s just fine that Hong Kong, Philippines, Germany, Denmark, Korea, are becoming the world&#039;s leaders in scientific and medical discoveries and engineering developments... OK then. Seriously.

Maybe it&#039;s hubris that we should assume America is &quot;the greatest country in the world!&quot; and we need to be more humble. Maybe it&#039;s only appropriate that the U.S. become the Spain of the 21st century. I dunno. Maybe it&#039;s OK that America becomes mediocre and complacent.

But the bottom line indeed is respect. And we on the extreme ends of the ideological spectrum are often guilty of disrespect and poisonous arrogance. Science isn&#039;t about emotion or arrogance. Naturalism is about respect for all living things. Relativism is about respect for all beliefs. Humanism is about respect for all humans. All these things that I believe in, follow, have no room for arrogance and elitism. It&#039;s my human failings that pervert these methods and philosophies into negative things.

I need to keep reading _Reason Driven Life_! I&#039;m sick of being so negative and arrogant. =P It really does suck. There are things that just so rile me up! So set me off, it takes supernatural will to blow stuff off and chill. I&#039;ll try! =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>No more judging. Stop thinking you are any more right than others. You may have facts, you may have formulas, you may have documents, you may have corroboration. But we are all human, and all fallible.</p></blockquote>
<p>You are absolutely right from a moralistic and philosophical point of view! We have to stop judging. Both &#8220;sides&#8221; of theism/humanism are guilty of arrogance.<br />
And I am SO guilty of it. Even now, I still have nagging thoughts of elitism I have to repress. And it only hurts the self and anyone around you. Arrogance, moral arrogance, is a poison. The cornerstone of naturalism and relativism and humanism, is that EVERYONE deserves respect! That everyone is valuable, and everyone has a right to their beliefs!</p>
<p>But, I do have to say, that in some things, some areas, facts do trump belief. Some people, a frighteningly large number of people!, believe the Earth is hollow. Facts totally disprove this belief. Where do you draw the line to ignore facts?</p>
<p>A more realistic situation, Creation is a belief. Honestly, while I would love to argue with Creationists, I do believe that it would be better to live and let live. Let Creationists believe what they want even though it&#8217;s factually incorrect.<br />
BUT! What about when a Creationist happens to by my daughter&#8217;s school teacher and tries to teach her evolution is &#8220;only a theory&#8221; and Creation has scientific validity? I honestly and completely believe that that is a situation in which facts have to come before belief. If someone wants to teach religious views of reality in a private school, fine! Great; more power to them. But in a public school facts have to come before belief. If I wanted to get a job as a molecular biologist and help research antibiotics, what&#8217;s more important? Facts of evolutionary biology or beliefs in Intelligent Design?<br />
In the home, sure. Personal beliefs. But there are times and places (and a blog is one of em!) where beliefs can have reign, but times and places where facts <b>have</b> to take precedence.</p>
<p>I could make the argument that the aggregate of beliefs counter to facts could hurt an entire society. The U.S. ranks 2nd to last of countries in &#8220;modern countries&#8221; that accept evolution over religious Creationism, and the U.S. is one of the worst in education and are rapidly falling behind other countries in graduates in scientific fields and new jobs in research. This may be a specious connection, and very likely is. But is it possible that the U.S. being the most religious western nation and one of the worst in education and scientific developments are related? Yeah, I think it is. Is that a BAD thing? I don&#8217;t know. If one is happy to have the U.S. falling from a super-power in all ways except military, then, maybe not. If it&#8217;s just fine that Hong Kong, Philippines, Germany, Denmark, Korea, are becoming the world&#8217;s leaders in scientific and medical discoveries and engineering developments&#8230; OK then. Seriously.</p>
<p>Maybe it&#8217;s hubris that we should assume America is &#8220;the greatest country in the world!&#8221; and we need to be more humble. Maybe it&#8217;s only appropriate that the U.S. become the Spain of the 21st century. I dunno. Maybe it&#8217;s OK that America becomes mediocre and complacent.</p>
<p>But the bottom line indeed is respect. And we on the extreme ends of the ideological spectrum are often guilty of disrespect and poisonous arrogance. Science isn&#8217;t about emotion or arrogance. Naturalism is about respect for all living things. Relativism is about respect for all beliefs. Humanism is about respect for all humans. All these things that I believe in, follow, have no room for arrogance and elitism. It&#8217;s my human failings that pervert these methods and philosophies into negative things.</p>
<p>I need to keep reading _Reason Driven Life_! I&#8217;m sick of being so negative and arrogant. =P It really does suck. There are things that just so rile me up! So set me off, it takes supernatural will to blow stuff off and chill. I&#8217;ll try! =)</p>
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		<title>By: Trace</title>
		<link>http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-4749</link>
		<dc:creator>Trace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:40:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/#comment-4749</guid>
		<description>I didnâ€™t read the debate that you are blogging about, though we did discuss it briefly the other day.  But I donâ€™t think thatâ€™s truly what I want to reply to here.  I think the lesson to be learned, for humanist and theist alike, is tolerance and love.  Christians spend so much time trying to â€œconvertâ€ anyone whose approach to God is different from their own, they forget that Christ taught us the greatest commandment is to love them, just love them and love God.  Thatâ€™s all we have to do in this world.  Not save them, not convince them they are sinners, not convict them, not accuse them, not judge them, and not avoid them.  It is why I get embarrassed to call myself a Christian, and why I donâ€™t prostheletize.
	We are so busy, on our religious soap boxes, saving the world, or proving how we are right and they are wrong, we lose sight of the humanity around us.  Itâ€™s time to make humans important again, no matter what you believe...and no matter what THEY believe.  And this one goes for secular humanist, scientific elitists and atheists too.  No more judging.  Stop thinking you are any more right than others.  You may have facts, you may have formulas, you may have documents, you may have corroboration.  But we are all human, and all fallible.
	Perhaps the first step in your resolution is to allow others to have their foibles.  As Sting wrote, â€œIt takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile.â€  Love them anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didnâ€™t read the debate that you are blogging about, though we did discuss it briefly the other day.  But I donâ€™t think thatâ€™s truly what I want to reply to here.  I think the lesson to be learned, for humanist and theist alike, is tolerance and love.  Christians spend so much time trying to â€œconvertâ€ anyone whose approach to God is different from their own, they forget that Christ taught us the greatest commandment is to love them, just love them and love God.  Thatâ€™s all we have to do in this world.  Not save them, not convince them they are sinners, not convict them, not accuse them, not judge them, and not avoid them.  It is why I get embarrassed to call myself a Christian, and why I donâ€™t prostheletize.<br />
	We are so busy, on our religious soap boxes, saving the world, or proving how we are right and they are wrong, we lose sight of the humanity around us.  Itâ€™s time to make humans important again, no matter what you believe&#8230;and no matter what THEY believe.  And this one goes for secular humanist, scientific elitists and atheists too.  No more judging.  Stop thinking you are any more right than others.  You may have facts, you may have formulas, you may have documents, you may have corroboration.  But we are all human, and all fallible.<br />
	Perhaps the first step in your resolution is to allow others to have their foibles.  As Sting wrote, â€œIt takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile.â€  Love them anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: CelticBear</title>
		<link>http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-4738</link>
		<dc:creator>CelticBear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 23:09:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/#comment-4738</guid>
		<description>Yeah well, you get out what you put in. I could say people who have professed belief in Christ&#039;s teachings have more of an onus to be humble, meek, and mild since their &quot;master&quot; has commanded them to be--but we all should be more humble and respectful, including elitist freethinkers. =)
There&#039;s no religious monopoly on decent human behavior; it&#039;s incumbent upon humanist and theist alike to be civil.
Ergo my very difficult resolution to be moreso. =) I may backslide, but I won&#039;t give up. =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah well, you get out what you put in. I could say people who have professed belief in Christ&#8217;s teachings have more of an onus to be humble, meek, and mild since their &#8220;master&#8221; has commanded them to be&#8211;but we all should be more humble and respectful, including elitist freethinkers. =)<br />
There&#8217;s no religious monopoly on decent human behavior; it&#8217;s incumbent upon humanist and theist alike to be civil.<br />
Ergo my very difficult resolution to be moreso. =) I may backslide, but I won&#8217;t give up. =)</p>
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		<title>By: jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/comment-page-1/#comment-4728</link>
		<dc:creator>jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Feb 2007 22:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/2007/02/07/a-book-and-a-belief/#comment-4728</guid>
		<description>I read a similar debate on Belief Net a few months ago, between Elaine Pagels and someone else (I forget now).  It was every good.  I will have to check this one out, too.  Very, very interesting about the reversals in Mark â€“ I never noticed them like that before.  

I would still like to discuss at some point the historicity of Jesus (not the resurrection, but the man).  Because I do believe there is evidence of his existence.  But that is for another day.  

Incidentally â€“ remember my advice about not having an obnoxious tone with believers?  Well, what about them taking an obnoxious tone with unbelievers?  Grrrrrrrrrr.  Somebody got my Irish up today!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read a similar debate on Belief Net a few months ago, between Elaine Pagels and someone else (I forget now).  It was every good.  I will have to check this one out, too.  Very, very interesting about the reversals in Mark â€“ I never noticed them like that before.  </p>
<p>I would still like to discuss at some point the historicity of Jesus (not the resurrection, but the man).  Because I do believe there is evidence of his existence.  But that is for another day.  </p>
<p>Incidentally â€“ remember my advice about not having an obnoxious tone with believers?  Well, what about them taking an obnoxious tone with unbelievers?  Grrrrrrrrrr.  Somebody got my Irish up today!</p>
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