I just want to touch on a couple of your comments. Children “knowing” about God or at least some greater Being/Power from birth, I’m skeptical of. I think as sentient beings, aware of life and death and conciousness, we try to put that in some kind of perspective from an early age. And as children our perspective is primarily of someone older, bigger, more powerful controling our lives and setting down rules for us and watching over us–that being our parents. it’s no wonder that the idea of the parent, father, is used as a metaphor for God.

And of course we’re looking at this in hindsight. To really get to the answer we’d need to talk to kids. But, what kinds of questions do you ask? Without being leading, yet they would understand what you’re asking? Plus, how can you ask kids young enough before indoctrination?

We would have to talk to kids who were raised in atheist and agnostic households if they felt there was something bigger than them “out there,” and I think simply because we are quite familiar with that concept having parents, it’s easy to expand that awareness and project it onto existance.

I’m being partly devil’s advocate, though. Partly, because I “feel” the existance of God myself, but I still question whether that’s a leftover from being raised Christian, or a mere human trait of psychology. After all, some neuologists believe they’ve found the part of the brain that makes us feel that sense of a greater power, as a way for the human species to be able to survive our barbaric natures.

I don’t know. =)

I think it’s interesting, but not unusual that we have similar ideas and understandings, but ultimately different conclusions from them. That’s the nature of our unique human existance. =) My wife, who is also a freethinker and rejects dogma, is a Christian and believes in “salvation,” although not of the Christian ideas of heaven nd hell, nor the exclusivity of Jesus being the one and only prophet of God.

Personally, I don’t reject (despite my tone and appearance) anyone who has a faith. That would be hypocritical of me. I have no proof God exists, but I have faith that he does, for personal reasons. I reject people who come to their faith unquestioned and as a revealed faith. Imposed upon them by other people, that they have simply accepted as truth…and then try to defend and justify using absurd concepts like the literalness and infalability of the Bible. But someone who believes in the divinity of Jesus or the concept of salvation and the like, if they come to that through personal discovery and exploration and evidence outside of human persons in positions of authority and because it was written in a book somewhere, more power to you. =)

I promise to check out your blog! I’m, at the moment, getting ready to leave for the weekend to a sci-fi/gaming convention, though. So I can’t devote the proper attention until later. Thanks again for replying! I appreciate the feedback, and the spirit of what you wrote.
Peace!

“Very rarely does a person go away from the religion they were brought up into.”

I think you are basically right about this, although I did just that and I am finding more and more people who have, as well.

“Likewise, children have no concept of God. They have no knowledge of God or Bibles or scrolls or prophets until adults tell them about it.”

I would agree that children have no concept of bibles, scrolls, or prophets, but I do think they have a concept of God. Every person born into every culture on the planet has some idea inside himself that there is a God, or some type of supreme Being or Force that is bigger than himself, and has a desire to know that God in an intimate way. But perhaps that is different from “concept”. What do you think?

“By the time a child is at an age in which they can start questioning the answers they were given to the questions they asked growing up, they are already firmly ensconced in a culture, an environment of a particular set of beliefs. They are not only expected to maintain those beliefs, but are admonished for questioning them.”

You will get no argument from me there! I have always been a questioner, and I never understood why that was such a bad thing. I’ve been kicked out of a few Sunday School classes in my day. Imagine my shock to learn that the wise men didn’t even reach the manger until Jesus was a year old! And yet they’re always there in the crèche.

Fear

(It just occurred to me that most terrorists are from the extreme ends of Christianity (KKK, White Supremacists, abortion center bombers,) and Islam. You don’t hear about Buddhist terrorists and Shintoist jihads and Hindu crusades and Wiccan inquisitionors.)

This is SO true! It really makes you stop and think, doesn’t it? As someone who is trying to follow the teachings of Jesus, I find this fact to be quite disgusting. And I am of the opinion that we Christians not only need to change our attitudes going forward, we also need to take accountability for the atrocities done by our forebears. Unfortunately, the majority of my brethren prefer instead to “white wash” the past (and present) and sweep those ugly things like slavery under the rug. It makes me sick, and I’m pretty sure it would make Jesus sick, too.

“But at worst, the fear of hell creates a cage, an enslavement to what you are told is “right.” By itself, or even as a significant component in one’s belief system, the fear of hell creates a joyless adherence to the letter of the law.”

Jesus talked about this fact the entire time he was on earth, and was constantly challenging the religious law that kept people enslaved. He said “I am come that they might have real and abundant life – more and better life than they ever dreamed of.” And one of my favorite Bible passages is John 1:16 – “From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

Sour Grapes

“…countless benefits those fundamentalists take advantage of that science has provided: Quality clothing, long lasting and flame retardant paper for Bibles, the Internet, television and radio, credit cards, medicine and food and health care today’s missionaries provide poor countries not to mention they and their families use, safe transportation, weather resistant houses and churches and shelters, are just a few of the things that science has provided…”

Again, you have hit the nail on the head of a very important subject. I, for one, am very thankful for all those scientists who have given so much to our society, such as the prosthetic foot I wear, frozen food, hair dye, penicillin…okay, well not penicillin cause I’m deathly allergic to it. But everything else!

Peer Pressure

“It’s one thing to feel good about belonging to a book club or making fun of the drama club, but when your belonging to a group involves your very soul and demands complete adherence mentally and behaviorally, the costs and benefits of being an accepted member of that group are that much more amplified and extreme.”

This is a profound statement. My mother stayed with an incredibly violent alcoholic for 45 years because her church had brainwashed her to believe that if she left, she wasn’t a true Christian (with the obvious implication that she would then burn in hell). Group psychology does take on a whole other dimension when religion is involved, as we have seen in the victims of Jim Jones, David Koresh, and the like. People made fun of the drama club??

Conclusion

“…the belief of something despite and in contrary to what facts and experience have proved, is dangerous and detrimental. To the self and to humanity in general. It leads to arrogance and hubris, hatred and intolerance, stagnation and divisiveness.”

I couldn’t agree more. Arrogance, hubris, hatred…all are rampant in the church, and quite honestly, it pisses me off. I once had a boss who told me “Seek to understand before seeking to be understood”. That has stuck with me, and it’s something I strive to do in my relationships. But I have very little tolerance for intolerant people!

It’s interesting that I agree with your points here, and yet I have come to a different conclusion in regards to my faith. For example, I have found that God and Science are not in conflict with each other, but rather they are quite interconnected. God created science, so that just makes sense to me.

Well, I’m sorry this has been so long. I won’t bore you anymore. But I am glad I stumbled across your site. It has been very enlightening reading and I would be honored for you to stop by my blog sometime (www.whatbox.blogspot.com) or email me (jenniferspiegel@woh.rr.com).

I noted a few contrasts. You stated, “I have faith in the existence of a God that created the universe” and “let God guide you in understanding. And you know, he did. He lead me to understand that religion is mythology.….then you state, “Why do people retain a faith that flies in the face of reason and rational thought and critical thinking and skepticism?”…then you state, “You need to be reasonable, open minded, skeptical”.

Unless I’m mistaken, you’re refering to an appearant disconnect between my believing in God, and my questioning “faith that flies in the face of reason and rational thought”?
I don’t believe there’s a problem there.
My belief in God is through personal discovery and personal reasoning, not at all from any kind of book or scroll or prophet or anything else a human has written or said. I find faith that is based on such things, when such things are so completely illogical and against factual evidence, to be absurd.

Faith in a God that comes from a personal or spiritual or whatever you want to call it, connection with said God is very different than faith based in dogma.

You saying religion is mythology is like “lumpology” and since Universism is a religion, you’re incorrect.

Well, my essay was already so long and bloated that I found it rediculous to make sure every time I said the word “religion” I disclaimed it with “faith-based religion based upon dogmatic principles.” I just assumed, probably not a good thing, that most people would get (especially considering the context) that when I mentioned “religion” I was mainly refering to the religions of Abraham and any other religion that comes from ancient mythology.

In any case, I have a hard time classifying “Universism” as a strict religion, any more than Buddhism or Taoism is a religion. They’re more a philosophy, really.

1. If you claim that God created the universe, you would have to explain who created God.

Ah, a very good point! One in which I’ve addressed in an earlier blog on my site. Check this out:
Evolution May Create God?
In it I possit that God may be the result of humanity evolving into a collective super-creature, perhaps at some point merging with artificial intelligence, to the point that some millions or even billions of years in the future creating a being capable of creating a universe. Perhaps this very one in some circular manner. Who knows!
Perhaps there is an infinite number of Gods creating each other. I think to say that’s not possible is to say what’s beyond the universe is limited by human imagination.

2. Does this “He” have masculine features?

Fair question. I can’t blame you for not knowing my styance on this as I wouldn’t wish anyone to try to read through my site, as arrogant and redundant as it is. But in some entries I addressed my thoughts on that. “He” is simply a convenient pronoun for the unknown THING that is God. Whether we’re talking about a creature or a manifestation of the universe itself or whatever, when using a pronoun instead of the word “God” it’s just convenient to use the masculine.
It’s just so much easier than writing he/she/it every time.
No, I think it’s utterly rediculous to think of God as some mammalian creature with gender and thus sex organs. =)

3. Your “faith in the right things” needs a little adjustment out of “listening to dogma”.

I have no idea what you mean by that. Sorry.

4. Then you question my, “Personal interaction with spirituality”, to which I’ll reply, “I stated that it was a spiritual interaction, not a personal interaction…where do you think your God’s guidance is coming from”?
Also:
A. Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that cannot be proven to be wrong. Logic dictates that spiritual interaction is only possible between the spirit of man and the spiritual existence (God?); claims of supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not rational.
–snip–
C. The Ultimate Truth is indecipherable by the human mind and can only be divulged to the spirit which also often misinterprets its meaning, hence we have various religions and beliefs.

Well, OK then. =)

I noted a few contrasts. You stated, “I have faith in the existence of a God that created the universe” and “let God guide you in understanding. And you know, he did. He lead me to understand that religion is mythology.….then you state, “Why do people retain a faith that flies in the face of reason and rational thought and critical thinking and skepticism?”…then you state, “You need to be reasonable, open minded, skeptical”.

Wellll…
1. You saying religion is mythology is like “lumpology” and since Universism is a religion, you’re incorrect.
If you claim that God created the universe, you would have to explain who created God.
2. Does this “He” have masculine features?
3. Your “faith in the right things” needs a little adjustment out of “listening to dogma”.
4. Then you question my, “Personal interaction with spirituality”, to which I’ll reply, “
A. Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that cannot be proven to be wrong. Logic dictates that spiritual interaction is only possible between the Spirit of God and the spirit of man; claims of supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not rational.
B. In order to intelligently appreciate something there has to be complete truth. Only when the truth behind the concept is known can one accurately judge the concept. Spirituality is an interaction of man’s spirit with the Spirit of God. Followers who added their own interpretations often expanded upon this interaction and gradually the original message was skewed to meet the agenda of the newly formed religion. Most religions today are composed of so much added on garbage to a point where they are the culmination of their own politics and have lost the original meaning of spirituality. C.
The Ultimate Truth is indecipherable by the human mind and can only be divulged to the spirit which also often misinterprets its meaning, hence we have various religions and beliefs.

But faith in the right things…not in religions and dogma and books and prophets and mythologies and ancient laws. Faith in these things, today, is delusion at best and dangerous at worst.

It’s true that a lot of people question their faith due to personal tragedy. It’s unfortunate because they do so out of anger, or grief, or disappointment. And that is NOT the right way to go about questioning. You need to be reasonable, open minded, skeptical. Fortunately, in my case, I’ve had a pretty great life. I’m healthy, my wife and daughter are beautiful and healthy, I’ve encountered no tragedy, and I live a nice, comfortable middle-class life. I grew up in a moderate Methodist church, and it was one of the best times of my life. The fellowship, the Church Camps, the events, the…everything was to me, at that time, great. Nothing happened to change that…

…except my reading the Bible and asking questions people couldn’t answer. My questioning of my faith came from reading two differing creation stories, two different instructions to Noah, events like the slaughter of entire towns and then dividing up the captured virgins among the priests, requirements to kill people for things like farming incorrectly or not being able to yell loud enough if they’re being raped, contradictions between Joseph’s lineage, events of Jesus’ birth, events of his death and resurrection, learning the history of the Hebrews, the Canaanites, and the Ugarits, learning about the history of the creation of the Bible and the different versions of the books that didn’t make it in the cannon, and on and on. And when I’d ask about these things, I always got the same answers I still do today: Don’t take it out of context, read the whole thing for meaning, the gestalt is greater than the parts, let God guide you in understanding.

And you know, he did. He lead me to understand that religion is mythology. Religion is foolish. That to listen to people to answer my questions with “read it in context” and then use passages willynilly to suit their agenda, is hypocrisy. He showed me that he is so much bigger than any man-made religion which defines God in human terms and creates Gods in human images.

Personal interaction with spirituality? Well, that’s certainly better than listening to dogma, or believing what other people tell you!! However, it’s also proven throughout the ages that emotion is VERY deceptive. And what some people think is their spirit talking to them is at best their emotions and at worst a subconcious rationalization of behavior or attitudes.

What if a personal reason for knowing God is a person’s own spiritual interaction? Various testimony throughout the Ages verify its validity. My own spiritual interaction caused me to interpret God as being an intellectual spiritual unity. I believe that the mysterious wonders of the universe mirror God.

The Ultimate Truth is indecipherable by the human mind and can only be divulged to the spirit which also often misinterprets its meaning, hence we have various religions and beliefs.